web meet-o-rama?

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Jane
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web meet-o-rama?

Postby Jane » Tue Mar 16, 2010 11:15 am

HEY! Doodle says so far EVERYONE can do friday at 2. Ooh boy. So shall we? Let's bring cake. x

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Re: web meet-o-rama?

Postby Jane » Tue Mar 16, 2010 12:02 pm

Milk has confirmed yes. Yes to meet and yes to cake, but no to meat. Got that? Bring knives.


xxxxx

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Re: web meet-o-rama?

Postby chris » Tue Mar 16, 2010 3:11 pm

cool,

To help make this meeting run smoothly, i think we're going to need a facilitator, and an agenda.

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Re: web meet-o-rama?

Postby chombee » Tue Mar 16, 2010 4:16 pm

I agree. I have some thoughts about an agenda. The meeting has the potential to get sidetracked and to be a long debate with no resolution at the end. Therefore, I propose (hopefully without reopening a can of worms here) to head off certain potential discussions before-hand:

1. I don't think we should get into a debate about the relative pros and cons of drupal vs tumblr. It will be useless to debate about this, both have their pros and cons, all the points have been made on the bb, both sides are repeating themselves now, to the non-technical people who have an interest in this it's a largely meaningless discussion anyway, but mostly, it seems clear that neither side has much hope of convincing the other. If we (as a group) choose one site or the other then we might want to talk about what changes we'd like to see on that site in short order, but I think we should avoid trying to come to a decision by having a debate about the sites because I don't think there will be a consensus on it.

2. I don't think we should talk about what our vision or design for the website is. There has been some calls in the now-closed thread for a discussion about this. This could be a very long discussion with no resolution anytime soon, and again we may have two camps that won't agree. I'm not trying to censor such discussion in meetings or on the bb, but I don't think we should talk about it in this particular meeting. The tumblr camp already has a clear vision and has had it for some time, this has been spelled out already, there is even a working implementation of it. From our point of view going back to square one and trying to come up with a new vision would be a big step backwards. Of course the group may reject our vision. It may be that the drupal camp doesn't yet have a clear vision for the future of the drupal site, but in my opinion the right place to discuss that is in a meeting about the drupal site, discussions among the drupal camp, bb threads about the drupal site, etc.

What I think we should talk about in this meeting is:

1. Stay with the drupal site, for as long as it takes.
2. Stay with the drupal site but set a deadline for it.
3. Go to tumblr now, reconsider drupal in the future when work has been done on it.
etc.

I think that if we keep the meeting focus on possible compromises, as in courses of action of this type, there's a good chance that it won't take too long to agree on a path that will get us a good forest site one way or another before too long.

There is one kind of compromise that I think probably won't work: asking the tumblr people to join the drupal people and work on drupal, or vice-versa. The groups have different visions and I think we've seen that they're unlikely to want to work with eachother.

How is that for a plan? Are there any objections? Do feel free to object to this plan, but if you do please try to propose an alternative agenda, cause I think this meeting does need an agenda. If we go into it without a plan we might get nowhere.

There is another possibility. First thing we could do at the meeting before discussing anything is come up with a plan/agenda together. But if we can fix one on the bb before-hand that would save time.
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Re: web meet-o-rama?

Postby chombee » Tue Mar 16, 2010 4:57 pm

Hey, I think there might be another type of compromise worth discussing. While none of us are interested in compromising on website visions and doing design by committee etc., it may not need to be a binary choice between tumblr and drupal. For example there's discussion in another thread about making a barred persons website with drupal. This is certainly something that you can't do with tumblr (unless we signed for a second tumblr blog, the forest barred persons blog!*). Could we not have tumblr handling the forest blog at forest.org.uk/blog, give it to Chris and Jane or whoever to curate, at other forest.org.uk URLs you could have other pages powered by drupal (or something else) and give that to the drupal team's project. At the root page forest.org.uk you could have an awesome static HTML page. At the same time, you could leave the door open for drupal to also take over the blogging and the front page functions at some point in the future, when we're all happy that it's ready to do it. Possibly we could all have our way.

Anyway, I'm prempting the meeting, I'll shut up.

* I think this is an excellent idea! :)
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Re: web meet-o-rama?

Postby Stephen » Tue Mar 16, 2010 6:20 pm

What a splendid compromise!
I agree

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Re: web meet-o-rama?

Postby chris » Tue Mar 16, 2010 6:48 pm

splendid idea!

furthermore, i suggest scout or ryan as facilitators, if either are available...

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Re: web meet-o-rama?

Postby nix » Tue Mar 16, 2010 10:43 pm


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Re: web meet-o-rama?

Postby chris » Tue Mar 16, 2010 10:52 pm

er? could be a good idea? is he an experienced facilitator?

understanding of forest may be more important than knowledge of websites, to be facilitator for this.

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Re: web meet-o-rama?

Postby joachim » Wed Mar 17, 2010 11:41 am

> Could we not have tumblr handling the forest blog at forest.org.uk/blog, give it to Chris and Jane or whoever to curate, at other forest.org.uk URLs you could have other pages powered by drupal

Sorry, but that's ridiculous. Why give ourselves two sites to admin instead of one?

At any rate, if the meeting is going to be about STILL debating which technology to use, then what is the point in me being there?

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Re: web meet-o-rama?

Postby chombee » Wed Mar 17, 2010 12:19 pm

Lets discuss it at the meeting.
I've had it with you. If I had an image of a laser gun I would absolutely position it right here in my hand...
Ha! I have a real laser absolutely positioned in my hand!

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Re: web meet-o-rama?

Postby nix » Wed Mar 17, 2010 1:03 pm

Hello.

I am siting with Scoutt,

she says she will Faclitate. Friday from 2 till 4. she says make it snappy.

cool

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Re: web meet-o-rama?

Postby chris » Wed Mar 17, 2010 1:10 pm

awesome.

i have also arranged to have an x-ray scanner delivered in time for the meeting. And we will need someone to frisk everyone who comes in for concealed weapons.

cheers!

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Re: web meet-o-rama?

Postby milk » Wed Mar 17, 2010 3:03 pm

hey, if you don't like it, post on the BB (so you can ask about participating for better) |

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Re: web meet-o-rama?

Postby dan » Wed Mar 17, 2010 4:04 pm

what would be great would be to use and modify drupal so it can have a lovely front page designed by some good artist and then a backside CMS which is totally easy to use for all non-webheads, like the wordpress one attached. Is this possible? If so, ideal!

D xx
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Re: web meet-o-rama?

Postby milk » Wed Mar 17, 2010 4:11 pm

funnily enough, the Drupal page to create news content is actually less cluttered and confusing than the WordPress dashboard, though the aim is to make it even less cluttered, to the level of tumblr, removing any extranious sections that don't apply to the lay content poster.
hey, if you don't like it, post on the BB (so you can ask about participating for better) |

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Re: web meet-o-rama?

Postby dan » Wed Mar 17, 2010 4:37 pm

excellent!

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Re: web meet-o-rama?

Postby ChaoticReality » Wed Mar 17, 2010 4:37 pm

Right on guys!

My personal approach has changed slightly. I'm sorry for my earlier attitude/behaviour. I was just worried that the sudden appearance of the tumblr site would steamroller over everything without there being a proper chance for us to work together on improving the existing site.

Drupal *is* complex in parts, but that can be limited to the parts the "techies" use. I would like to make the user experience of the site, specifically for people adding content, to be simple like tumblr, but with the amazing power of Drupal behind it.

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Re: web meet-o-rama?

Postby chombee » Wed Mar 17, 2010 9:32 pm

I've had it with you. If I had an image of a laser gun I would absolutely position it right here in my hand...
Ha! I have a real laser absolutely positioned in my hand!

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Re: web meet-o-rama?

Postby Jane » Wed Mar 17, 2010 10:05 pm

Before we get any more ensconced in discussion pro/anti tumblr/drupal and this becomes the same as the locked thread, may I suggest setting out an agenda and agreeing to stick to that and leaving any more chat to the meeting?

I'll put what I would personally like to see and then anyone else can respond and change things as they see fit:

1. those with concerns about the current website state
a. what problems they have with the current site
b. what their vision for a website is
c. how they would implement this/timescale

2. those who run the current website state
a. whether they can fix those problems
b. whether they agree with that vision (and, if not, whether they have an alternative vision)
c. if they do agree with the vision and criticisms, how they could be implemented in drupal, and what the timescale of this is
d. if they have an alternative vision, what the timescale for implementing that is
e. what drupal can do that other websites can't and why we should use it

3. both
a. agree what we prioritise in our website (e.g. visually attractive/good archiving system/ease of uploading/strong coding/interesting copy/ease of navigation/etc)
b. agree whether we would like to set a deadline for change in drupal/stay with drupal for as long as it takes/switch temporarily to tumblr with a front page until we have the drupal of our dreams/go with sean's non-binary approach/switch entirely to tumblr forever/go back to our beloved joomla/change the forest website to

this may seem like a lot but a bunch of it is yes/no/numbers, and a bunch of the rest we've already mostly covered.

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Re: web meet-o-rama?

Postby nix » Wed Mar 17, 2010 11:46 pm


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Re: web meet-o-rama?

Postby nix » Wed Mar 17, 2010 11:50 pm

sorrk im tierd,

there was meant to be thin link in it.

a dedicated workshops page that links from the static front page. Lukas (the EVS Workshops Coordinator) but he wants to be able to click on each workshop and be able to see the image for it and read the description.

\goodnight\

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Re: web meet-o-rama?

Postby joachim » Thu Mar 18, 2010 7:42 am


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Re: web meet-o-rama?

Postby Jane » Thu Mar 18, 2010 9:10 am

Hey! Can we try and just stick to agenda discussion and save the rest for the face-to-face for now?! I *know* how hard it is to resist the allure of typey-type and soup-stirring still (oh boy, I know it, I want to respond to that *so* bad, but I'm being good).

But yes, agenda points now, discussion later. xx

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Re: web meet-o-rama?

Postby milk » Thu Mar 18, 2010 12:55 pm

hey, if you don't like it, post on the BB (so you can ask about participating for better) |

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Re: web meet-o-rama?

Postby Lynne » Thu Mar 18, 2010 3:00 pm

I've reeeeeally been trying to stay out of this as I didn't want to get involved, and I don't feel that I'm informed enough to contribute.

BUT...in my humble opinion, I agree with what Sean and Ryan say and I like what Nix just suggested for the tumblr site (as well as Chris and Gareth's suggestions).

As soon as I read all the reasons from the techie people as to why we should use drupal my head goes to mush and I feel bogged down by lots of extraneous, needless details - is this not what we are trying to get away from?!

(sorry guys, I don't mean this personally AT ALL).

I think it would be lovely to keep the site and it's functions as simple as is humanly possible.

Techie guys - please compromise!

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Re: web meet-o-rama?

Postby joachim » Thu Mar 18, 2010 3:04 pm

I have been trying to channel the discussion to non-technical stuff that everyone can brings ideas on, and the non-techies keep moving it back to technical stuff.

Non-techie guys: either FOCUS or leave the techie stuff to the techies.

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Re: web meet-o-rama?

Postby milk » Thu Mar 18, 2010 3:51 pm

what kind of details are you referring to? i mean, as has been said, it's a complicated topic in that there are various concepts to link together when you're trying to talk about things in a holistic sense, but i think these things need to be said so that we all understand each other's perspective.

when you follow it with "is this not what we are trying to get away from?!", it sounds like you're conflating the idea of the site being 'easy to use', the 'what people want' and the 'how we can get there' issues, which, while overlapping, are things that need to be deconstructed so people can understand the big picture.

analogy; think about the BB. it's moderately largish and complex piece of web software in it's own right with all it's bells and whistles for managing users, threads, subforums, groups, etc, but it's fairly simple for people to create posts, reply to existing ones, etc.
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Re: web meet-o-rama?

Postby ChaoticReality » Thu Mar 18, 2010 3:59 pm


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Re: web meet-o-rama?

Postby joachim » Thu Mar 18, 2010 4:04 pm

Yup.

And with Drupal we're actually deciding on the bells and whistles we want and building them.

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Re: web meet-o-rama?

Postby Lynne » Thu Mar 18, 2010 4:42 pm

Oh fuck, forget it!!!

This is why I didn't want to get involved :wink:

On you's go guys, I won't be saying another thing!

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Re: web meet-o-rama?

Postby milk » Thu Mar 18, 2010 4:50 pm

heh, this is why we have real life meetings ;)

srsly; please do come to the meet tomorrow - it would be great to get a perspective from an admin :)
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Re: web meet-o-rama?

Postby Lynne » Thu Mar 18, 2010 5:03 pm

I don't wanna, I'm scared!

I should have said where I was coming from, i.e., I'm trying to see things from outside both sides' arguments. To me, each side seems to be arguing from a totally different perspective and that is resulting in a stalemate.

(But I think Sean already said that, and Jane already unpacked all the options involved in sorting this out)

I really don't think you need me to complicate the issue, and I should've held back from putting my two cents worth in!

I'm happy with whatever you decide - as long as it's easy to find the hall hire info :)

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Re: web meet-o-rama?

Postby chombee » Thu Mar 18, 2010 5:07 pm

I propose a poll, who thinks the forest website should be like the bb? Or, who thinks the bb is simple and easy to use? This bb has approximately 40 subforums arranged into a dozen or so groups, if you want to get back to some post you read before it's impossible to find it, and if you want to post something and you don't already know your way around it's impossible to know where to post it! I've no doubt that this complexity scares plenty of people away from being involved on the bb. Even the search page is way over-complicated. I propose that anyone who thinks this bb is a good model for a simple and easy to use website should be locked up before they do any more harm to themselves or others.

P.S. my paragraph to Mike in my last post looks snarky but it wasn't intended to be, can't edit, sorry Mike.
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Re: web meet-o-rama?

Postby milk » Thu Mar 18, 2010 5:15 pm

well, the BB is better than nowt. it's certainly better than people having to access the web space via ftp, download text files, edit them, reupload, organise, avoid file change conflicts, etc - you get the point - to communicate ;)
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Re: web meet-o-rama?

Postby Jane » Thu Mar 18, 2010 5:17 pm


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Re: web meet-o-rama?

Postby Jane » Thu Mar 18, 2010 5:22 pm

Well, I'm glad everyone's sticking to just posting agenda points and not getting back into arguments. Well done us. Maybe we should just lock the entire bb and be done with it...
x

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Re: web meet-o-rama?

Postby joachim » Thu Mar 18, 2010 7:09 pm


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Re: web meet-o-rama?

Postby Shannon » Thu Mar 18, 2010 7:10 pm


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Re: web meet-o-rama?

Postby joachim » Thu Mar 18, 2010 7:13 pm

[quote="Shannon"]It's very nice that Drupal could be so much more, but frankly, who cares? Do we need it?/quote]

I really think you do. If you want to have anything approaching that design pic Chris posted earlier, I would say you do.

Please decide before tomorrow's meeting if this is going to be Drupal-bashing. I understand I am a newbie and you guys have been struggling with Drupal for a while. But I came along because I got wind that Milk needed a hand with it, and I am here to lend it, and instead I got dragged into this soul-sapping quagmire. Like I said, Drupal is my dayjob. If you guys are still arguing about whether to ditch or not then I am really wasting my time here. There are plenty more fun things I can be doing with my life.

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Re: web meet-o-rama?

Postby scoutwinter » Thu Mar 18, 2010 7:39 pm

wow. i hate you guys already!
i have no idea what you're talking about. hopefully this means i will be able to facilitate without being biased ;)

tomorrow is gonna run something like this:

1.45pm: everyone shows up and gets a cup of tea, comes to the action room
2pm we sit down, write agenda out together (with approx times for guidance), work out what the meeting is aiming to actually do, (agree on what we are aiming for consensus on), and how long the meeting will take (i want out by 4pm!)
4pm we are all happy and hug and smile together, everyone buys me cake.

please be on time!

ok?

x scoutt

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Re: web meet-o-rama?

Postby Jane » Thu Mar 18, 2010 7:51 pm


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Re: web meet-o-rama?

Postby Stephen » Thu Mar 18, 2010 11:01 pm

Don't run away just yet jaochim,

I think all we need to talk about is what do want from a website, how it will work and what is the best way to implement those ideas.

This is my lay out for an easy to navigate website that looks good.

"""""""""""""""""FRONTPAGE"""""""""""""""""
links: Forest Pub
Forest Records
Total Kunst
old hat books
Events/workshops/Artists Facillites
About
Forum

So the first four are sorted! great


E/w/af goes to a news feed page with todays event being the first thing you see, linked from events calender.
At the top menus with drop down sub sections for each, these should stay there no matter what page you are on

Events Workshops Facilities
puting on events Hosting CAVE
DARKROOM )these contain booking forms about sections etc
Screen Print
Hall


ABOUT

You know some writing, where we are who we are, how to volunteer, photo archives, how to grow a forest etc

well maybe i'll see you all tomorrow for cake.

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Re: web meet-o-rama?

Postby Stephen » Thu Mar 18, 2010 11:07 pm

damn and id formatted it so nice,
well i may bring a picture tomorrow. today if your reading this over breakfast.

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Re: web meet-o-rama?

Postby Jane » Fri Mar 19, 2010 12:09 am

don't eat too much breakfast. remember to leave room for cake.

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martinmckenna
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Re: web meet-o-rama?

Postby martinmckenna » Fri Mar 19, 2010 12:17 am

the issue is not so much about software . its about the forest mindset in regards to the web and how projects function within the forest . I could get into the history of it but i wont . But lets just say it has fundamentally changed last year, breaking away from a monolithic web site (joomla , drupal) with proliferation of individual web sites for projects .whist not everyone likes what has happened . it has and i doubt it is going to change . This has now led us to point that the present monolithic web site approach is becoming increasingly irrelevant as most of the forest projects have moved out of it . a continuation of trying to fix the forest back into a monolithic web site will only bring us grieve . Its never been a good thing .


martin
Heaven is a disaster

Lambchop , The Saturday option .

chombee
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Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2006 3:01 pm
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Re: web meet-o-rama?

Postby chombee » Fri Mar 19, 2010 8:47 pm

I've had it with you. If I had an image of a laser gun I would absolutely position it right here in my hand...
Ha! I have a real laser absolutely positioned in my hand!


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